Hamzeh N.

03.28.06 @ 10:29 am

Well, if they didn’t invent it, who did? God? How are you going to convince an atheist of that?

Rihab

03.28.06 @ 12:53 pm

Just because a person can’t make sense of a religion doesn’t necessarily mean they are athiests. There are many people that don’t follow any religion but do believe in the existence of God. Of course, there are even more others who simply inherit their beliefs without taking the time to truly understand what it is they “believe” in.

With the Abrahamic religions, I think certain aspects of them such as the story of creation or Noah’s ark for example are quite hard to believe, how is a man able to pick a pair of every organism on this planet, including animals, insects and plants (bearing in mind that species vary from one region to the other)? With the help of God, sure everything is possible but I can see how such a story would raise doubts especially when similar stories were told in Mesopotamian civilizations.

I think, with religion, people should take it’s generic principles which are engraved into most of our consciences anyway. The point of all religions is to guide followers on how to be “good” people. Taking it beyond a personal context and trying to enforce it on everyone else doesn’t serve society with many benefits and history is filled with such examples.

God may or may not exist, I don’t know, I have no way of knowing for sure but I would like to think that he does hence I believe in him but I’m not sure that he’s appointed a certain people to be the holders of the “ultimate truth”. As we can see today and throughout history, people have a tendency of interpreting words in their own way to serve their own needs (not always a bad thing but it can be). Who’s to say one interpretation is truer than the other? Who’s to say that one religion is truer than another?? And so who’s to say any of it is true??

Surely, at the end of the day, what matters is to be a person who’s true to themselves and good to others around you. If you’ve never killed, stolen, lied etc. why should you go to hell because you don’t believe that someone is the final prophet or because you don’t believe in a trinity or because you are not a member of “God’s chosen people”?? If you are a good, decent human being who hasn’t harmed anyone, why does it matter??

josi

03.28.06 @ 9:16 pm

It is true that the main points of the three major religions are to be a good person, and to live a productive honorable life. That is why we all should respect other people and the religion they choose to adopt, we may not necessarily agree on everything but I think that we all can agree that God is the one that will judge us all and no one knows for sure what that judgment will be. There are things in each religion that may not be easily acceptable to others, I always wonder why people think they can do things that are morally and ethically incomprehensible and go to confession and believe that their sins are forgiven.

I am a true believer that God does exist, just waking up in the morning and watching the sunrise, or reading the verses in the Quran that discuss the creation of human life in detail giving all the stages that occur in reproduction, and giving the different embryonic stages that a human undergoes before full development, or reading the verses that discuss how Iron was brought down from the sky to earth, or reading verses about how the water of the Mediterranean Sea and that of the Atlantic ocean do not mix (one is sweet water and one is salt water) although there’s no visible barrier that separates the two (these things were proven by scientists hundreds of years after they were talked about in the Quran)
Religion should not blind us to what is going on around us, it is good to question things and to think of the meaning behind why things happen. I think that science can be used as a tool to explain things that were once thought to have been unbelievable thus strengthening ones faith, not making it weaker.

Rihab

03.29.06 @ 12:10 pm

I think the attempts to tie science in with Islam is not something that Islamic scholars should embark on because, unlike religion, science is continuously evolving. So, a concept or theory that may be true today could, with technological advancement, be disproved in 50yrs time. Using a scientific theory as proof of the Quran being a miracle will automatically nullify the validity of the Quran should that theory be disproved. Otherwise, scholars will have to come up with an alternative interpretation that matches the newly found theory - such a process in itself would also create doubts in some believers.

The ancient Greeks studied embryology and detailed the development of the fetus. Claudius Galenus (a.k.a Galen), a Greek physician, detailed the stages of embryonic development in the same way the Quran does about half a century before Islam. In fact, the stages of development he describes: a drop of semen (nutfah), blood clot (3alaqa), fleshed up appearance (mud’3ah), and then full development correspond almost exactly to the Quranic terms used to describe embryonic development; not that either descriptions are scientifically accurate.

The Meditteranean and Atlantic do mix, one flows into the other…. the Meditteranean is saltier than the Atlantic making it denser and so, if you were on a boat going from one to the other anyone would probably be able to feel the change of buoyancy - which would probably make it feel like there was an invisible barrier between the two bodies of water. As for iron, the majority of it on Earth is found in the form of molten iron in the Earth’s core, which hasn’t been brought down but was there as part of the Earth’s make up for billions of years. However, a lot of the iron tools produced in antiquity came from meteoric iron so I guess that’s why it was thought to have been brought down.

I don’t believe that science and religion (whatever that religion be) could ever meet. I think if a person wants to remain with a strong belief in their religion then they should keep it separate from science because trying to be logical about religion will only cause you to lose faith in your religion… Believe me, I’ve tried.

josi

03.29.06 @ 8:35 pm

I really wish I could sit down here and respond to every point you made in trying to say that science can not be used to prove certain points in the Quran, but unfortunately my nine month old is driving me insane. The one that I can discuss quickly is the mixing of the Atlantic and the Mediterranean, what is meant by the waters not mixing is that although they flow together, each maintains its own characteristics.

I am sorry that you don’t feel that science and religion can not meet, as a person with a degree in biochemistry and a strong believer I feel that the two complement each other rather than contradict one another. We may be looking at the same object and seeing two completely different things, it’s always a person’s perspective that governs what the outcome will be. If you are coming in with the perspective that religion is something that is illogical, then any proof, being scientific or not, will not mean anything to you and you will find a way to discredit it and find holes in it. Above all, I am truly sorry that you seem to have lost faith in your religion.

Rihab

03.30.06 @ 5:42 am

I’m not someone who has a rigid perspective on anything, I try to understand and evaluate whatever information I have in front of me, then try to come out with a sensible and logical conclusion. I used to be very religious and a very strong believer, in fact one of the reasons I developed a strong belief was reading about the “scientific facts” in the Quran. However, reading more about these “facts”, the Quran, and about the history of monothiestic religions did lead me to gradually lose faith, because eventually, most miracles seemed to have a reasonable explanation to them.

It’s not the case that I’m trying to “find a way to discredit” anything, why is it that people always seem to end a debate about religion in this way?? This is exactly what a lot of imams are like when you go and ask them questions - when they get tired of answering you they’ll just shrug and say “that’s Allah’s will”, well then what else am I supposed to conclude other than there isn’t a reasonable answer he’s able to give me?! I don’t try to find holes and I wouldn’t be able to anyway if none existed, but to be honest, from my own research and from my experience of how people are ready to brush you off as a hole-picker when the questions get hard, even though at the time I was genuinely trying to find answers, I’d be lying to myself if I said I found Islam to be a 100% convincing religion.

Anyway, take care and hope you and your family are well.

josi

03.30.06 @ 9:29 am

I never meant to brush you off, and I don’t believe that you have a rigid perspective. I do not judge the people that I know very well, let alone those who I don’t know. I was not trying to brush you off, I was only offering you a different perspective. I always try to look at my actions from the outside by taking my self out of the equation and seeing what is the reason behind the things I say and do, and I was only offering you an outsiders perspective. You do not necessarily have to agree with what is said, but it might get you to think that things you say are not alwyas taken in the context of which you want them to.
You say you have read “about the Quran”, that is someone’s interpertation of the Quran, I encourage you to read the book itself and draw your own conclusions. There are many scholars of Islam and people who say represent Islam that I don’t agree with at all. I would lie to you if I said I understand Islam 100%, there are no absolute certainities in anything most of all religion. Quran is a very diffictult read, and to tell you the truth, the first few times I read it, I didn’t udnerstand much. So I just try to read as much Quran as I can, and everytime I do, I encounter something that I missed before and I understand it more and find something new in there that I haven’t seen before. My view is that it teaches us tolerance, not to judge others because things and people are ever changing. I see it as being a good person, living an honorable life at home, at work, in your community and having respect for others no matter what and raising your children to do the same. It’s not just reading the Quran and praying, it is a way of life.

I wish you all the best.

Rihab

03.30.06 @ 11:28 am

Yes, I’ve read about the Quran but I’ve read the Quran itself too.. from the time I was a teenager I used to read at least a quarter of a 7izb everyday, which would go up to a joz2 a day in Ramadan. I’ve never read any other book as many times as I’ve read the Quran, my favourite part of it is Surt Al-Israa2 and particularly ayas 23 - 38 because I found them to be the best principles one can live their life by and the only reason I remember them in particular is because I would re-read them whenever I felt, well, a bit down I guess.

Anyway, when I say to you I used to be a strong believer, it’s not something I say for the sake of argument, it’s because I really was. I read Islam for myself but as I’m sure you’re aware, you can’t understand everything fully by yourself you need to get help from those who are supposed to be more knowledgeable, but unfortunately, I didn’t really ever get any answers to some of my questions and some answers quite honestly did not make sense. Islam is a way of life, but I’m unable to submit myself to a way of life that I can’t fully comprehend.

Thanks for your wishes and all the best to you too.

josi

03.30.06 @ 8:20 pm

I actually have two favorite suras, al rahman and al insan. Also, there’s a verse in al imran (# 7 I believe) that I try to say at least once a day, it is “Rabana la tuzigh qulubana ba’ad ith hadaytana wa hab lana min ladunka rahmatan inaka anta alwahab.” I say this verse hoping to keep my faith strong and so that inshalla it will stay this way.
Have a wonderful night.

Iman

03.30.06 @ 9:30 pm

Interesting replies …

I’ve concluded long ago that I no matter how I try cannot begin to put myself in the position of those who can’t feel God all around them and those who believe the three religions are human inventions neither do I want to try.

Rihab: this is the verse I’ve talked to you about before but could no recall literally! [Rabana la tuzigh qulubana ba’ad ith hadaytana]