Qwaider قويدر

12.13.06 @ 1:43 am

Iman, it’s not an easy matter, it’s extremely deep and complex. You might want to pardon your friend if he decided not to get into it because many people feel that such matters brings doubt into their hearts.

Everything is predestined as you have said, yet choice is what makes it different. Predestined because it happens with the will of god, not against it, but not by god directly forcing it to happen, or changing the cource of history to make it happen. But with things falling into it’s place over the course of thousands of years for it to just happen to “appear” to happen out of no where.

At a certain level, we need to live and think and decide as if we expect absolutely no help from God, yet, we seek this help during making the decision and afterwards, in trying to achieve what we’re set out to do

As I said, these are extremely deep philosophical issues, and many people will not be tolerant enough to even listen to you before classifying this as blasphemy or worse. Although, all I see is a sincere person, searching for answers. Unfortunately, no one has them

I hope this helps and not adds to your confusion

Rihab

12.13.06 @ 3:47 am

I agree with the fact that we cannot know our future and, to a large extent, we cannot control it…and I also agree that we can make decisions within the limits of what we can control

So what are the limits of what we control??

If God controls and knows from the second you were born/created, that you will go to heaven or hell, and since, according to Islam, working towards an entry into heaven is the point of life - then God has already predestined your path in life that will lead you to heaven or to hell. So to say that humans have any form of control over their life is faulted logic given that the end result has already been determined, which means man is not, at any point during his life, the decision-maker but God is.

The equivalent would be a teacher pre-setting his/her students’ exam results prior to them taking the exam. In such a case, you cannot blame or credit the students for their results since the outcome has already been pre-set. So it makes the exam pointless and makes you wonder why the teacher would set an exam in the first place??…. also brings about other questions about the teacher but it’ll take too long to get into that and I need to work (yes Iman, I do work! :roll:).

hatem abunimeh

12.13.06 @ 9:15 am

Iman,
Just do whatever you want to do and let God do whatever s/he wants to do.

Hamzeh N.

12.13.06 @ 9:19 am

Isn’t this a contradiction?

No Iman. If you see someone doing something, it doesn’t mean that you made them do it. In the same way, just because God can see your future, doesn’t mean that he chose it for you. He just knows.

kerr

12.13.06 @ 1:48 pm

Iman,
Destiny or (Qada’ Wal Alqadar) is a very complicated subject as many people avoid it because of fear that will have doubts in their hearts. Reading through out the Qura’an, and especially surah Alkahaf (CAVE), we see that prophet Musa was seeking the knowledge and found a person who was suppose to teach him. He did things(Please read the surah) that Musa found strange. When the he knew why those actions were done, he believed
I suggest following this link and reading more about destiny and pre-destiny:

kerr

12.13.06 @ 1:50 pm

More on destiny

Mary

12.13.06 @ 2:54 pm

I just found your blog and have read only a few entries–enough to realize that it is like finding a “friend”.

I “blog” offline in a journal.
I am grateful that you are open enough to put yours up for others to read.

salaamu allaykum

Rihab

12.13.06 @ 3:28 pm

If God “just knows”, then what’s the point of life?? He already knows where everyone is headed why watch everyone do their good deeds and commit their sins? So that He has a reason to put people in heaven/hell?? Does an All-Powerful supreme being really need a reason to put people in heaven or hell??

The fact that the end outcome is pre-determined makes everything between birth and death meaningless and pointless since you have no real control over what will happen to you in the end, since it’s been set since the day you were a zygote. It even says in the Quran, when referring to those who disbelieve that God has “sealed” their hearts from belief:

خَتَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ وَعَلَى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلَى أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ
ِAl-Baqara v.7

So no matter how hard they try, or others try to make them believe, they never will - so ultimately they don’t have a hand in their belief, which of course brings into question how just and fair it is to put someone in hell since they were not the ones who volunteered to get their hearts sealed.

There is a blatant contradiction in saying we have freewill while believing that fate is pre-determined. People who feel a need to believe in something, will try to force it to make sense and ignore their own voice of reason, otherwise they will simply avoid the issue by saying that it’s part of some greater wisdom they have no access to, and that it is human logic that is faulted and not religion… but then again why would God create human logic in such a way that it is unable to comprehend his religion(s)?? Can you really fault/punish someone for going with what makes sense to them??

The questions are endless as are the contradictions, in which case it is best to follow Ockham’s razor, “All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one” - in this case, the simple answer is that if it doesn’t make sense it probably isn’t true.

Hamzeh N.

12.13.06 @ 9:06 pm

If God “just knows”, then what’s the point of life?? He already knows where everyone is headed why watch everyone do their good deeds and commit their sins? So that He has a reason to put people in heaven/hell?? Does an All-Powerful supreme being really need a reason to put people in heaven or hell??

But who ever said that God is sitting watching us day and night and spending the hours and minutes as we spend them. If he already knows, then in some scope, things have already been sealed and determined, right? But that’s his scope, not ours.

What if we were like the movie that God can fast forward or skip through and jump from beginning to end. Regardless of where God decides to look, there will always be a movie, with a begining and an end, and with characters that go from beginning to end. so in that sense, the answer to your question of “what is the purpose of life?” or in other words “why are we experiencing this existance?” is that this whole thing would have had to happen at least once, from beginning to end, and our existance is probably the process of what God already knows happened or is gonna happen, actually taking place.

The Quran verse you quoted can be interpreted as saying that some people God decides to seal their case. I know I used the words “just knows”, but I really didn’t mean to say he cannot influence. Afterall I believe he created all of this and is capable of affecting. It doesn’t mean everyone has their fate sealed by God.

Iman

12.13.06 @ 11:57 pm

I remember I had this same discussion with a sheik while I was in undergrad. His response in a nutshell was that we as humans do have a choice…he was not too interested in addressing the issue per se…whereas I, on the other hand, wanted him to go deeper into it, and said basically the same thing I said in this post and what I’m about to say below… I must say that I don’t believe that sheiks enjoy this subject that much…I seriously felt that at some point in the discussion he got frustrated with my questions…

Anyway, Rihab, (and this applies to what Qwaider, Hatem, Kerr and Hamzeh said as well)…

The Quran explicitly speaks to us of the good and evil..and so we will be judged on how we live our lives according to what is revealed to us in the Quran. We make the decision as to which path we want to choose…and when we die and face Allah come Judgement Day, we are not going to be judged blindly…we will be judged for what we’ve done, how we lived our lives, our good and bad…
Yes, I strongly believe that our fate is determined by Allah. He created and holds the master plan of our lives. To me, the point (which is the confusing part that seems to be so complicated in essence)remains that no matter what we do, no matter how much we try, no matter what measures we take to make something happen, no matter what decisions we make, no matter which path we choose the outcome will be that of what Allah wants and what Allah wills.

p.s. Hi Mary… Thanks for your comment.

Rihab

12.14.06 @ 1:45 am

Hamzeh,

I got a little confused with what you wrote because you started off with:

“why are we experiencing this existance?” is that this whole thing would have had to happen at least once, from beginning to end, and our existance is probably the process of what God already knows happened or is gonna happen, actually taking place.

which seems to imply that God does not influence our actions but simply has knowledge of them… that made me wonder, why then is it said that nothing will be without God’s will? And why is it said (in the Quran) that if God wishes something to be it will be?

But then you ended with:

The Quran verse you quoted can be interpreted as saying that some people God decides to seal their case. I know I used the words “just knows”, but I really didn’t mean to say he cannot influence. Afterall I believe he created all of this and is capable of affecting. It doesn’t mean everyone has their fate sealed by God.

which I felt contradicted what you said earlier, but in any case, if he does influence then it’s back to square one - how do humans have freewill if it’s influenced by a greater power? And by the way, the interpretation I took was as it was interpretted by Ibn Kathir… so not my own interpretation.

Iman,

Simply saying “We make the decision as to which path we want to choose” and following on with “no matter which path we choose the outcome will be that of what Allah wants and what Allah wills” is a complete contradiction, since the second statement negates the first. If we go back to the student/teacher example I mentioned, it doesn’t matter how many right or wrong answers a student actually gets, since their result has already been set, which makes taking the exam pointless and makes the teacher biased and unfair. That’s why your sheikh got annoyed with your questions and that’s why any sheikh will get annoyed when you start asking a lot about “sensitive” issues - try slavery and women’s rights.

Hamzeh N.

12.14.06 @ 9:33 am

Rihab, yeah what I said in the beginning makes it sound as if I think God doesn’t influence anything, but in reality he can. So just put the two together. He can influence people’s fates if he wants to, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he predetermines everybody’s fate, he however, can tell in advance what choices we are going to make just like you would be able to watch a movie’s ending without really taking part in directing the movie yourself.

Iman

12.14.06 @ 1:02 pm

Honestly… the more I think about it, the more confused I become…take this for example:

some Muslim thinkers believed that human beings had no freedom. They were called “Jabriyyah.” The majority of Muslim scholars did not accept this position, they strongly criticized and condemned this position and considered it against the teachings of the Qur’an and authentic Sunnah. The mainstream Muslim position is that Allah has the knowledge of all things and He has the power over all things. Allah, however, has also granted freedom to human beings. Allah’s power and foreknowledge do not mean that human beings have no freedom, nor does Human freedom negate Allah’s power and foreknowledge. Human beings are free only as much as Allah has granted them the freedom. However, in spite of our human freedom we are still under the control of Allah and within His knowledge. Allah will judge us according to the freedom and responsibility that He gave us. He knows very well how much freedom we have and to what extent we are able to exercise our freedom, each one of us in our own circumstances. It is for this reason that we say that only Allah is the True and Final Judge. In the Qur’an He is called “Ahkam al-hakimin” (the best of all the judges, Hud, 11:45; at-Tin, 95:8).

Everything is within His will… so ultimately he guides us and leads us because he already knows what path he has set for us!

When we carefully examine our own selves and the world around us, we see two things very clearly. On the one hand we find ourselves overwhelmed by forces that are apparently beyond our decision and control, but on the other hand we do experience real freedom and we make our choices between various options.

Again…But it is real freedom only within the limits of what Allah has granted us as said earlier. So that freedom is pre-determined by Allah!

In modern terminology people use the terms “nature” and “nurture”. The truth is that neither everything that we do is by nature, i.e. we are born with it; nor every thing is by nurture.

The truth is that we are free and we are determined both at the same time. Nature and nurture both work in our lives. Our freedom is limited, nevertheless it does exist and it is the deciding factor for our responsibility and consequently for the eternal reward or punishment.

So basically our limited freedom as granted by Allah, and inspite of that ‘freedom’ we are still under the control of Allah and within His knowledge…Whatever we do we are guided by his power and his will…and He will judge us according to the freedom and responsibility that He gave us.

In the Qur’an Allah has spoken about His control and power as well as human freedom and responsibility. Both aspects are very clearly mentioned in the Qur’an. The best way to understand and interpret the Qur’an is to keep both of these aspects in mind. We should not emphasize our freedom at the expense of Allah’s power and knowledge, nor should we speak about Allah’s power and knowledge by negating and denying our own freedom and responsibility.

But our own freedom and responsibility is only within the realm of what Allah has allowed!

Mawlana Mawdudi – may Allah bless his soul – in his book Qada and Qadar (in Urdu) collected both types of verses from the Qur’an. Following a selection of these Qur’anic statements.

On Allah’s power and control, see the following verses:

“All power belongs to Allah” (al-Baqarah: 165) “Say, Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One the Mighty.” (ar-Ra`d: 16) “Allah has created you and all that you do.” (as-Saffat: 96) “No female conceives, nor does she bring forth a child save with His knowledge. And no one is granted long life, not is anything diminished of its life, but it is all recorded in a book…” (Fatir: 11) “No misfortune can happen on earth or in your souls but is recorded in a decree before We bring it into existence. That is truly easy for Allah. In order that you may not despair over matters that pass you by, not exult over favors bestowed upon you. For Allah loves not any vainglorious boaster…” (al-Hadid: 22-23). “To Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth. He enlarges the provisions for whomsoever He pleases and straitens it for whomsoever He pleases. Surely He knows all things full well…” (ash-Shura: 12) “And say not of anything, ‘I shall do it tomorrow’, unless Allah wills…” (al-Kahf: 23-24) “If Allah touches you with affliction there is none to remove it but He; and if He touches you with happiness, then He has power to do all that He wills.” (al-An`am:17) “Whom Allah will, He lets go astray, and whom He wills, He places on the right path.” (al-An`am: 39) “Do you desire to guide him whom Allah has caused to perish? And for him whom Allah causes to perish you shall not find a way.” (an-Nisa’: 88) “If your Lord has enforced His will, surely, all those who are on the earth would have believed together. Will you then force people to become believers? And none can believe except by the permission of Allah…” (Yunus: 99-100)

But on the human freedom and responsibility read the following verses:

“Neither according to your desires, nor according to the desires of the People of the Book, whosoever will do evil will be requited accordingly and shall not find beside Allah any protector or helper. If any do deeds of righteousness, be they male or female, and have faith, they will enter heaven and not the least injustice will be done to them.” (an-Nisa’: 123-124) “This because Allah does never change a favor that He has conferred upon a people until they change their own condition…” (al-Anfal: 53) “Every person stands pledged for what he has earned.” (at-Tur: 21) “It is the truth from your Lord; wherefore let his who will, believe, and let him who will, disbelieve.” (al-Kahf: 29) “This is a reminder. So let him, who will, take a way unto his Lord.” (al-Muzzammil: 19) “And hasten towards forgiveness from your Lord…” (Al `Imran: 133) “O our people, respond to God’s summoner and believe in him…” (al-Ahqaf: 31) “Turn to your Lord and submit yourselves to Him…” (az-Zumar: 54) “Corruption has spread on land and sea because of what people’s hands have wrought.” (ar-Rum: 41) “Whatever misfortune befalls you is the consequence of what your own hands have wrought. And Allah forgives many of your sins.” (ash-Shura: 30) “Indeed Allah does not wrong the people at all; it is they wrong their own selves.” (Yunus: 44) “As for Thamud, We guided them, but they preferred blindness to guidance.” (Fussilat 41:17) “There is no compulsion in religion. Surely the right way has become distinct from error.” (al-Baqarah: 256)

“This because Allah does never change a favor that He has conferred upon a people until they change their own condition…” (al-Anfal: 53)But isn’t this also true:

“To Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth. He enlarges the provisions for whomsoever He pleases and straitens it for whomsoever He pleases. Surely He knows all things full well…” (ash-Shura: 12)

“Whom Allah will, He lets go astray, and whom He wills, He places on the right path.” (al-An`am: 39)

So really, what choice do we as humans have over our will and destiny?!

The Qur’an has no contradictions. Allah’s power and knowledge and human freedom are not mutually exclusive. Whatever freedom we have is granted to us by Allah and we should use it to submit to Him freely and willingly. This is the honor that Allah has given us and for this honor angels were asked by Allah to bow in respect and honor of the progenitor of the human race Adam (may the peace of Allah be upon him).”

This is like a never ending spinning wheel…I need to think about this more… the way I understand it is that it is all in Allah’s hands!

By the way, Hamzeh… If we are to think of our lives as a movie…then I would say that based on what I’ve read and based on my understanding, we are the stars and Allah is the supreme director/producer!

I have a headache now!

Pingback Iman’s » Well…

01.5.07 @ 12:39 am

[...] - Rihab said: “I saw this on Aljazeera English ‘Your Views’ and thought about you: ‘Can we keep President Bush out of the Saddam execution discussion? Saddam was executed because it was the Will of Allah - nothing happens less it be the Will of Allah - it is written in the Koran. President Bush has no influence over Allah’s Will. Saddam is dead - Praise be to Allah! - dirkadirkamohammedjihad, Fort Bragg, USA.’” Although this is clearly a sarcastic reply, her rememberance is inspired by this and our quite often discussions of that particular subject!.right?! :d [...]

eyad

11.19.07 @ 1:32 am

Iman, the past it was confusing, but not after i read a book for Islamic scholar Ibn qayyim al jawzeyyah,
simply put:”allah knows in advance, so he wrote what he knew, nothing more, “.