Unfaithful…

January 3, 2007 | Category: Art & Culture, Uncategorized

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Hymenoplasty Cosmetic Surgery, Professional Association, Fort Lauderdale, Fla. The hidden patient in this photograph is a 21-year-old Arab woman living in the United States. In order to adhere to cultural and familial expectations regarding her virginity, she had her hymen reconstructed. (Photograph by Taryn Simon)

I find hymen reconstruction sleazy! A life full of lies is awaiting to unfold…

72 Comments

  1. Rana
    on January 3rd, 2007
    1

    It’s not that I think having a Hymenoplastic surgery is right or anything but for some reason I can’t look down upon a girl who does it. Why? Because in the Arab society its okay for a guy to do whatever he pleases but if a girl does even half of what a guy does she will become a humiliation/disgrace to her family. Hymen reconstruction doesn’t have to lead to a life full of lies, People make mistakes, and everyone should be given second chances. When it involves this issue, men get second…third… millions of chances. This just gives the girl a choice to either say what she did wrong or keep quite about her mistakes do the surgery and move on just like men can.

  2. Devil's Mind
    on January 3rd, 2007
    2

    I partly agree with Rana. While, I don’t like the idea of hymen reconstruction, you just can’t blame girls for making it.

    The issue is multi-dimensional. First, self-preservation. The second is a choice between honesty and lies. This second choice has two considerations, the first is honesty with the spouse. The other consideration is honesty with the people around you.

    For me, Hymenoplasty is as u said dishonesty. The girl is deteriorating her sexual history, which is kind of manipulating the facts.

    The question that arises, does anyone have the right to lie about their sexual history? I guess the answer is YES (to some degree). I believe that a woman has no responsibility whatsoever to give an account of her sexual history to anyone at all!

    My personal conviction is that people should be honest as long as that does impose harm on them. Knowing about some of the sick mentalities here in our Arab world, it becomes obvious that honesty about sexual history might pose danger on the girl; For this reason, being dishonest is justified.

    Considering that women in most cases do Hymenoplasty just before marriage, a new question arises. Why does the girl marry a man who finds it unacceptable for her to have had previous sexual relations?! How can she live a life based on lies?! This question is at its heart different from the previous “lying-for-survival” argument.

    I mean, its understandable for a girl to lie for her own survival, but why would a girl agree to make that lie a basis for her life? This question is really important to ask.

    When two people live together the most important factor is knowing the other person loves you as is. So can a girl live with a man who -if ever- learnt about her history would despise her?! How can she live with her own lie?!

    The final part is lie to other people. Well, I guess “other people” don’t deserve to learn the truth so I see nothing bad in that part.

    I said, I partly agree with Rana because of this excerpt: “Hymen reconstruction doesn’t have to lead to a life full of lies, People make mistakes, and everyone should be given second chances.” - I think it is wrong to say that losing the hymen is a “mistake” that deserves a second chance. On the contrary, sex is a choice that no one should be ashamed to undertake. If a girl lost her virginity, its NOT a mistake that she needs to fix, or get a “second chance” - she is good as she is, she just needs someone to recognize that. But this surely remains my personal view that some might find questionable.

    Finally, I have once addressed this issue on my own blog and presented a suggestion that…. well… might be considered extreme for some people. Anyways, if you want to read that, check here.

  3. Iman
    on January 3rd, 2007
    3

    Rana, what second chance if the guy never learns of the ‘mistake’ the girl he is marrying committed?

    This just gives the girl a choice to either say what she did wrong or keep quite about her mistakes do the surgery and move on just like men can.

    Exactly… she can either be honest and discuss her past … or lie by covering it up, for the objective of having a hymenoplasty is to cover up that ‘mistake’ and become a ‘reborn virgin…’ and no one else would even have to know the truth… and that I believe is utterly dishonest and unfaithful! Particularly if the girl is directly asked about specifics of her past!

    Devil’s Mind, you raise some very valid questions … one of which, why would a girl want to marry a guy who does not accept her for what and who she is!

    On the contrary, sex is a choice that no one should be ashamed to undertake. If a girl lost her virginity, its NOT a mistake that she needs to fix, or get a “second chance”

    Engaging in pre-marital sex is wrong…it doesn’t make one a bad person, but it certainly is a wrong act! And many girls obviously see it as a mistake and hence want to cover up any ’signs’ of it … which can be viewed even worse if the truth remains hidden.

  4. Devil's Mind
    on January 3rd, 2007
    4

    Personally, I see nothing wrong about pre-marital sex, but as I mentioned above its my personal view that you obviously disagree upon. Well, allow me to go beyond this point…

    You say, “And many girls obviously see it as a mistake and hence want to cover up any ’signs’ of it” - I dont think anybody does anything that they consider “wrong”.

    I mean it. When you know something is wrong you would never do it. In fact nobody would do anything that they themselves consider wrong. So those girls who do Hymenoplasty sure don’t think pre-marital sex is wrong. They hide its sign because others consider it as wrong. If they truly believed it was wrong they wouldnt have done it in the first place!

  5. josi
    on January 3rd, 2007
    5

    I don’t agree with hymenoplasty, and I don’t agree with the fact that a guy can do what ever he chooses to do and then looks for an innocent virgin to marry because the other girls aren’t good enough. In my opinion premarital sex for both men and women is a huge mistake, and not just for the religious or ethical reasons. I think that especially for women, it is more of a mistake because in many cases the woman’s body is not the only thing that is being used, her emotions are also invested in the relationship (which is not the case with most of the men involved) When it comes to premarital sexual relations, the women have the most to lose, and that’s why they have to turn to drastic measures such as hymenoplasty to remedy the situation. I know that times are changing, and a lot of what was taboo before is the norm now, but I believe that somethings should be sacred, and a human body should be one of those things. I wish that girls would respect themselves more, and not allow guys to use them and dispose of them which leads them to go and try to fix what was broken. It’s not fair to them, and it’s not fair to the guyw that are marrying them, and it’s not fair to the girls who have made better choices. You know, what it boils down to, is you should accept responsibility for your actions, if you think that there is nothing wrong with having sex before marriage, then you shouldn’t be having a hymenoplasty.

  6. Devil's Mind
    on January 3rd, 2007
    6

    I have a question. I personally don’t see it as an interesting question, because the whole “virginity” and “hymen” issues are insignificant to me.

    Anyways, the question is: “What about a virgin who was raped. - Whats your position from a raped virgin doing hymenoplasty? Is it a deceitful practice or not?”

    My position is, even if she was raped hymenoplasty is still unnecessary, because the whole issue of the hymen is insignificant. Guess, others might have a different view… Lets see!

  7. saad
    on January 4th, 2007
    7

    I’m all for respecting cultural traditions. But this seems a little extreme. Perhaps Arab women should take a stand against this. Until we see public demonstrations and with Arab women shouting “Down with Hymenorrhaphy!”, these practices are likely to continue. By the way, is it hymenoplasty or hymenorrhaphy? If unsure, I guess the protesters could probably yell “Down with hymen reconstruction surgery!” That is a mouthful. You know what, forget the demonstrations. It all sounds like a bad idea.

  8. kinzi
    on January 4th, 2007
    8

    I work with victims of incest and childhood sexual abuse. In this case, their virginity was taken from them, in some cases by the very ones called to protect it.

    Without the “V” label, they will never marry well, if at all, in Jordan. And marriage is EVERYTHING. I don’t blame these girls at all for getting the surgery.

    And as far as honesty, yes, it is foundational for marriage. But until men can match the same level of cost for their honesty, I don’t blame these women for keeping their secret.

  9. Nas
    on January 4th, 2007
    9

    virginity is a personal thing, a religious thing and a social thing. The former two are much easier to deal with. A person can forgive themselves (or in some cases forgive someone else) and God is even more forgiving.

    So we come to society which is the most unforgiving entity. This type of surgery can be used for good and bad. To bypass an unforgiving society or cover up a personal sin. It’s like plastic surgery being used for facial reconstruction after a horrible accident, or for vanity.

    intentions are everything

  10. kinzi
    on January 4th, 2007
    10

    I am also a firm believer in no sex before marriage, for both partners.

  11. Qwaider قويدر
    on January 4th, 2007
    11

    Wow … Looking at the comments made me not want to say anything, since I like to keep my ideas private

    But on a lighter side, think of the male’s counterpart the dudenhymen, the interesting part is that for guys … it grows back :)

  12. salam
    on January 4th, 2007
    12

    listen to this: a woman I know went to have it done before her second marriage..ALTHOUGH her new husband knows she had been married before and knows she already has a son..but she still did it for his enjoyment?! Her new (but rather expired )husband was on Viagra, she ended up being taken to the hospital that night with severe bleeding adn complications..no comment!

  13. Shaden
    on January 4th, 2007
    13

    We were told not to expose ourselves if God did not, provided of course that we repent. So no Iman, if she sinned once and got the chance to undo the physical evidence (again provided that she repented) I think she does deserve a second chance and nobody has the right to know. In marriage, his past does not belong to her and her past does not belong to him. It’s one thing to be honest and open with each other and another to carry your sin around for the rest of your life and be judged by it. So if she knows that talking about it will ruin their marriage, or the future of any relationship they have she shouldn’t.

  14. Luai
    on January 4th, 2007
    14

    In some ways, I think this levels the playing field for females. Some guys think they can run around but then expect that the one they choose to be innocent.

    I wonder what drives doctors to do such things…I am sure the $$ they receive is a nice chunk of change…but do they feel that they are somehow helping the woman.

    And I wonder what goes through a woman’s head after having this procedure done and then moving on with her life. Does guilt ever come back?

  15. Rihab
    on January 4th, 2007
    15

    Why would a woman go for a man who would have a problem with the way she conducted her life?? Seriously, there are loads of men in the world, simply go for the one who’s perspective on life suits yours.

  16. Qwaider قويدر
    on January 4th, 2007
    16

    To be frank, I am disgusted with some of the comments here. I’m not going to say which but some are just way too low and prove some people have no such thing as moral compass!

    My personal position on this is that I prefer a relationship over a stupid membrane! I prefer to know and have the choice to mutually accept and move on, rather than be deceived into a marriage with lies as it’s basis.
    A person who lies at the beginning, will continue to lie after marriage, or in other words is NOT honest.

    I wrote a much longer comment here, but decided it was inappropriate. So I’ll just mention my personal position and nothing else.

    For me, a person with a past and a good promise for a future, is WAAAY more trust worthy than a person who tries to fool me to believe that she’s an angel. I have absolutely no respect for the later

  17. izzi
    on January 4th, 2007
    17

    I agree with you, but in some extreme cases in which a girl could be killed for it, i make an exception. but in general, it is not done for that reason, and it makes me feel sorry for the guys that they lie to.

  18. Shaden
    on January 4th, 2007
    18

    Rihab, I agree with you however not every girl is given that choice, you have society and family pressures. Not every girl marries because she is in love and it makes no sense that a woman has to go around telling every potential suitor that she had lost her virginity in a society like ours, where the mere relationship with a man is not exactly understandable.

    I’m talking about our society and our men, can they take it? can they understand? how many men are up to sharing their premarital sexual relationships with the women they want to marry? how many women are ok with it? I’m being realistic here, I personally would not hide anything from someone I think of as a potential life partner but I also believe that other women have the right to protect themselves from a past that can ruin their lives forever. The question should be it’s done.

  19. Shaden
    on January 4th, 2007
    19

    And no I don’t think if you ever made mistakes in the past you owe it to anyone that they learn of them! When you care about someone, you might feel comfortable enough to share that with him, and you might not! Even if you marry someone, he doesn’t own you for God’s sake, you make the decision of sharing your past with him but he has no right to demand it from you. If he knows who you are, your past does not matter to him unless you’re a serial killer, but then that’s not something anyone can hide anyway so you probably need not to worry about it.

  20. Qwaider Planet
    on January 4th, 2007
    20

    Bride’s virginity!…

    A very intriguing article by Iman titled simply ” Unfaithful “, where she displayed a picture of a lady…

  21. Qwaider قويدر on [Bride's virginity]
    on January 4th, 2007
    21

    A very intriguing article by Iman titled simply ” Unfaithful “, where she displayed a picture of a lady during hymen reconstruction plastic surgery to hide or mask her past in what appears to be a way to comply with strict social codes of some societies around the world. The article has stirred controversy over the delicate matter to some. [Read More... ]

  22. laila
    on January 4th, 2007
    22

    reading these comments, I am surprised at some. The hymen is not a yardstick of virginity, it can be damaged or totally lost by gymnastics, horseriding, bikeriding, falling, jumping, even an operation. For this reason many families FORBID their young daughters from being active, from learning to ride horses or whatvere. As loath as I am to apply labels, this mentality that hymen=virginity is rather old fashioned (to the say the least).

    That issue aside, I agree with Shaden a person’s past is their past. If they have done somethibg wrong, and they have repented (properly) then they have the right of sotra, to keep the matter quiet.

    This idea of telling a prospective spouse of the wrong things that you are suposedly ashamed is self contradictory. If a man told me (in the spirit of honesty and blah blah) that he had girlfriend(s) with whom he experienced extra-martial relations, and that he had repented, I would run. Because this man is a liar, if you repent, then clearly whatever it is u did u must be ashamed of, telling me about it smacks of shamelessness.

    Another point, people deserve second chances, and only God can grant them this. Once people find out that u did this or that, u will be stuck in that role forever. People are unforgiving.

  23. kerr
    on January 4th, 2007
    23

    I have read and thought before I comment on such a touchy and sticky subject that is and has been done for decades back home. The hymen reconstruction phenomenon is not NEW. If we tackle the issue morality we have to take in consideration the Arab culture compared to non-Arab (ie Western societies). The issue of “Hymenoplasty “, morally is wrong, and it is a kind of a deceit. Human do make mistakes, but in the Arab world is considered an honor. This stems from our belief that the women do not engage in pre-marital sex, and if she did then the world ends. Yes, we Arabs live in a world of hypocrisy and double standards. But this is how we are brought up, and I AM NOT saying it is right. Male Arabs are given many chances and even approval from parents, while females have all the restrictions. If the girl is going to marry in the Arab world, what she would do? I do not think the mentality of the majority of Arabs males is going to accept her mistake. Also her parents are not going to accept that as it is the honor of the family.
    Religiously of course it is wrong and it should have not happened. Islam came more merciful than our culture, where in Islam if sex happened before marriage, then the punishment on BOTH should be equal. In our culture, the females are blamed and the men are FREE. “Because he is a man !!!!!”, and honor does not apply to him.
    Mistake did happen, what should we do? And if we approve it, do not you think that will encourage others to do it and hence we encourage dishonesty.
    Now the issue of the marriage contract were it is written in it as she is virgin, has to be a false one. I am not a “3alem” or Mufti but there is a form of dishonesty in it.

    If a woman did have the surgery, I think she should not tell her husband. What Allah has covered, she should repent and not cover. How does she know that he did not do the same? Any thing happened during their marriage

    SORRY FOR THIS LONG comment.

  24. Qwaider قويدر
    on January 4th, 2007
    24

    At the end of the day, what’s a marriage without honesty? I fail to find an answer to that other than … “Nothing!”. Quite frankly, I would rather ending up with a non-virgin than someone who tried to fool me! …

  25. kerr
    on January 4th, 2007
    25

    Qwaider قويدر ,

    But the issue of hymen reconstruction is before marriage?

    During marriage honesty, faithfullness, loyalty, etc is a MUST.

  26. Qwaider قويدر
    on January 4th, 2007
    26

    If a marriage is based on a lie…? Falsification of a state… trying to deceive me … trying to tell me things that don’t exist … what’s based on falsification is exactly like that
    Blaming it on the future husband is not really the right way to go, he has committed no sin - yet!
    furthermore, since this is just aliasing a specific condition, the man involved has the right to know and the choice to accept or not, just like if he had an STD or impotence. She has the right to know

    We need to stop thinking of this as a “Mistake” many WANTED it, therefore what could be categorized as a mistake (in the view of the society) might mean nothing to the people involved

    Honesty is more important than keeping up with appearances.. I wouldn’t leave someone for not being a virgin, but I would definitely leave someone who’s trying to fool me

  27. kerr
    on January 4th, 2007
    27

    Qwaider قويدر,
    I understand your point; the girl who is doing the hymen reconstruction is saving her life, and not fooling the future husband for crying our loud. NOW, if this is your demand that she is virgin and she never been with anyone, and they lie to you, then you have a point. Some said that virginity should not be the yardstick, which I agree. Let us put the shoe on the other foot. Would you, Qwaider, tell your future Pride that you have been having Sex before you met her? Or is it better to leave every thing un-exposed and live a normal life. What is un-know would not hurt.

  28. Qwaider قويدر
    on January 4th, 2007
    28

    I would expose everything I [might] have done. Because it’s her absolute right to know everything. It’s her right to know what to expect. It’s her right to decide if she will accept it or not. And since I’m giving the lady such choice, I should be willing to accept her to reciprocate.
    Saving her life? The husband doesn’t have the right to do anything to her even if she’s not a virgin.

    Virginity is a state of mind really, it might be lost for any reason. It doesn’t guarantee virtue in the past, present or future. For all we know many other sexual acts could be done while maintaining the stupid membrane!

    Finally, if the society has such mental health issues as in punishing someone by death for not being virgin, that’s what needs to change! People need to stand up and say no! And people need to understand that this is NOT the way to deal with this situation

  29. kerr
    on January 4th, 2007
    29

    Qwaider قويدر
    What I meant saving her life from society. I Do not know, if you are out of reality or just not thinking about how the marriage process is. The girl can not go and tell a man the first time she sees about her “mistake”.
    I agree with your last paragraph, with reservations.

  30. Qwaider قويدر
    on January 4th, 2007
    30

    kerr, if she’s going to share the same bed with the guy, don’t you think it’s about time he knew?
    I *personally* think so, others might not. And trust me, I’m fully aware and familiar with the marriage process and from both sides.
    It’s not unrealistic for the guy and the girl sit alone and discuss these matters, after all, they’re going to share everything…

  31. laila
    on January 4th, 2007
    31

    it is said that a ‘good’ person, who does not believe in extra-marital sex, can find themeselves in a compromising position in which their desires overcome their rationale and their morals. True, it is up to the individual to avoid being in such a situation, but people consider me ‘extreme’ when I mention this, so it must not be an accepted social norm. Anyway, what I am saying that you need not be a sexually liberated individual to find yourself committing zina.. maybe once.

    This is all well now, while I am talking objectively about hypothetical situtions, but my gut reaction to someone who I discover is zani, is revulsion, and in my eyes their esteem takes a nose dive. But they may be different people now, or they may have learned from their past, maybe they have repented properly, it is more than likely that God has wiped their slate clean…

    I disagree that it is somehow my ‘right’ to know of my husbands past… i say it is his right to start again, to wipe his slate clean, to lead a married life free from a suspicion. If he told me (just for the sake of telling me) i would suspect his sincerity in repenting/changing. I would also not respect him so much, and would be wary of him.

    The bottom line is: people can change, but people cannot accept that people change.

    kerr: I agree

  32. Qwaider قويدر
    on January 4th, 2007
    32

    Why does it have to be that one way stream of thought? and not the other? or anything in between
    I don’t want to turn this to a personal issue to begin with but lets say a guy was tested HIV+ don’t you think the nice lady he’s getting married to has the right to know?
    My personal opinion on this is, Yes, Absolutely, not only that, she has the right to Judge AND decide based on that.

    If I’m about to start a life, part of repenting, is to try to make things right, and someone would do this by first confessing before God, and himself. And then loved ones or people that matter.

    In any case, the matter is very sensitive as everyone can see. And many words are left unsaid on fear that people might misunderstand or project them one way or another on the person who says them.

    Again, I might accept and forget about something in the past, but I will never ever forget or forgive something that is being done deliberately to deceive me. Especially when I make it absolutely clear that what I care about is the person and the relationship. Not the stupid membrane!
    Think of it this way, I don’t care about what happened before I existed in some one’s life, but I absolutely care about an ongoing lie

  33. Qwaider قويدر
    on January 4th, 2007
    33

    Or something like I don’t care about the Big Bang, but I do care about the Sun going supernova! One doesn’t affect me, but the other … does affect me big time!

  34. kerr
    on January 4th, 2007
    34

    Qwaider,
    I know it is unrealistic for a girl and a would be husbnad to sit aside and talk and discuss their future within Islamic and Arbic culture rules. I do not see it that a woman or a man for that matter tells a person who just met about their sexual past if they have it. You may be an open minded person and may or may not accept this person to be your better half. Others, may find it un-accetptable. We do not live in this world alone. We have parents, family, relatives to deal with. Suppose a person is faced with this situation and, this female told him about her sexual past. He did not like the idea. No matter how open minded is this person is, he is going to tell his family why this girl is not suitable to him. Gossip starts and the girls future is ruined. Imagine the gassip and the exageration as the story goes from one person to another, if you know whay I mean. Yes, if you ask and they lied to you, then you have the right to reject and onbject the person who deliberately deceived you.

    Laila,
    Thank you.

  35. Qwaider قويدر
    on January 4th, 2007
    35

    Kerr, may I say that with all due respect I don’t think this is how the marriage system functions. The groom and bride-to-be have many sessions before finally deciding and along these lines they will have chances to ask each other intimate questions. Many do. I’m very acquainted with the process to tell you that they would have a million chance before the tolbeh (the official request for the lady’s hand in marriage) and once that has happened, there is a little while before the official engagement takes place. And if that doesn’t happen till then they have plenty of time after engagement and before the wedding.
    The society is not all that great, but there are plenty of opportunities to discuss these matters. There are rules and codes to follow. Like for example the groom is not allowed to say anything about his fiance if it doesn’t work out, on the other hand, he has the right to see her hair, and even before the official engagement. (some say and her legs too)

    Anyway, I firmly stand by honesty against deceit.

  36. kerr
    on January 4th, 2007
    36

    Qwaider,
    I am with you 100% about honesty and not being fooled. I know, it could be many sessions before :tolbeh”, but still I do not think the girl will admit to this dangerous secret. As I said, not many people are like you. Not many people allow their daughters to sit with the person more than 2-3 times maximum. No, the groom has no right to see her hair nor her legs. Your mother or sister(Female) but not YOU. At least this is my knowledge with the Islamic code.

  37. Qwaider قويدر
    on January 4th, 2007
    37

    I’m positive about the hair part. Legs, I’m not so sure. But they’re there because of couple of incidents at prophet time where in one case the woman was bold, and in the other she had leprosy. Apparently, the Islamic rule is that any medical condition needs to be disclosed.

  38. laila
    on January 4th, 2007
    38

    a persons past should not affect ur future with them, if you dont care why would you want to know?

    issues such as diseases which could be transmitted are another issue entirely.

    from the second a couple get together the onus should be on honesty, about the present, why should the past factor into things?

    also, why ‘confess’ to people that matter? if telling them will hurt them, and since whatever it was u stopped, and it will not affect them anyway?

    besides, there is very little for you to worry about qwaider, if you marry a girl raised according to arab +muslim tradition, there is very little chance of her having gone wayward, and nothing for her to hide. I know plenty arab/muslim women, and wherever they live their good reputation follows. I know am generalising, but it is based on many years experience :)

  39. Qwaider قويدر
    on January 4th, 2007
    39

    Oh, and another thing, women can already see other women’s hair, so what’s the point of allowing it for women? It’s already allowed :)
    The only awra from a woman to another woman is from the navel to the knees

  40. Hamzeh N.
    on January 4th, 2007
    40

    I am all for this type of surgery to be available because I believe it is quite necessary in many cases, especially in our societies.

    It is not sleazy, because it is something that encompasses more scenarios, whether some like it or not, than the ones that are most likely to pop into mind when thinking about the subject. So as was previously said, intentions always matter.

    Based on that, I argue that the procedure itself should not be condemned. On the contrary, it should be very well accepted.

    What remains, is casting individual judgements on the persons who choose to do it: were they justified or not? I know that I personally have never been tasked by anyone to cast judgements on others. I am not an enforcer of any kind of law, and therefore I believe that that is none of my business and therefore to me the remaining issue of justification is completely irrelevant.

    Regarding honesty. It is too naive and bordering foolishness to adopt a policy of absolute honesty when it comes to these topics in our society. I’m sorry, but that is a fact. I personally will never be able to call the person who chooses to be absolutely honest about their sexual history dishonest, but I will call them naive and sometimes foolish if they do it within our society. I’m sorry again.

    A dishonest person is a dishonest person, whether you allowed them to exercise their dishonesty or found ways to prevent them from delivering one lie. Preventing these operations will not solve any major problems, and it won’t even prevent any big problems. And if people think that allowing these procedures is going to promote dishonesty then we have a different problem that requires a different solution, and that is where our efforts and focus (even in debating and blogging) should be.

  41. Qwaider قويدر
    on January 4th, 2007
    41

    Past actions may be indications of future behavior. But don’t just take my word for it, check with the nearest credit history bureau.
    Therefore, a person might want to reserve the right to accept someone along with their baggage, or not. But not to be fooled into believing that someone has done absolutely nothing only to find out somehow that that wasn’t the case
    A lie is a lie is a lie, even if it’s being done to save your own life. It’s still not the truth.
    I agree with you, some people might not care, and might not want to know. For these, the whole matter is a moot point. They don’t care to start with

    But others care, and expect certain things. If he accepts it then that’s fine, if not there are plenty of fish in the sea! Why don’t many simply see it like that!?

  42. Devil's Mind
    on January 4th, 2007
    42

    Qwaider, understand that honesty is a choice. I totally agree with you that I would like a girl to be honest with me. I also would like Bill Gates to give me a hundred million dollars.

    Do you see what I mean?! We all “want” stuff, but we cant always “take” them.

    In the same sense, I would want a girl to be honest with me, but she to is the one with the power to give that or reserve it.

    I agree with Hamzeh, as strongly as I feel against Hymenoplasty, I am for the woman’s right to perform that operation! Honesty is something given, not taken.

  43. Iman
    on January 4th, 2007
    43

    Laila, 1)It is my right to ask my future partner about his sexual past (I’m not interested in details, and in fact I wouldn’t want to know details…but I’m sure you’ve heard of STDs)and at the same time, it is his right to opt for not answering! 2)I can’t quite understand why you would judge someone so harshly for being honest with you about his past and especially if it was not so promiscuous! 3)you might have misunderstood…the hymen is NOT a yardstick for measuring virginity, it neither is one for measuring morality nor righteousness…the problem is not with the procedure itself as much as it is with the objective behind it. So Hamzeh yes it is sleazy to go about your pre-marital sexual activity with the intention of ‘covering it up’ with a hymenoplasty. I guarantee you that other scenarios would be judged (and yes, believe it…we as humans do judge!) in a completely different light…and by the way Devil’s Mind, rape is not a choice but pre-marital sex is and that’s exactly what I had in mind when I labeled it a sleazy procedure.

    I agree with Qwaider on entirely everything he said (with the exception of legs and hair because I really don’t know about that)… Bottom line, and I firmly believe in this, if asked about your sexual past you should be honest about it. If the person you’re honest with does not accept it then that’s a problem in its own… I mean, would you really want someone who doesn’t accept you for what you are? I wouldn’t… (as cliche as it may sound, it’s true!)

    Devil’s Mind, Kerry, Hamezh… since you guys are advocating hymenoplasties, how would your reaction be if you happened to find out later in your marriage that your wife, for fear of being a victim of society’s cruelty and intolerance, had one to cover up her promiscuous sexual past, but more importantly failed to share that detail with you when you asked before marriage? May I suggest something? How about changing your mind set first before adovcating such procedure and perhaps women wont need to resort to it because you - who are a part of that society and possible potentials - would be tolerant, accepting and forgiving!

    But, based on your reactions above, I’m inclined to say (and I may be wrong) that you’re for such procedure because you personally will not accept a non-virgin and would rather have a ‘virgin’ wife regardless of how of a true ‘virgin’ she really is!

  44. kerr
    on January 5th, 2007
    44

    Iman,
    You are wrong. I am not an advocate of hymenoplasties. If you look into my the very first post, you would see that it is MORALLY wrong and it is a deceit. We are discussing the phenomenon, not when and if I am faced with the situation. I hope you read all the posts and COMPREHEND what is posted there.
    No, I do not need to change, because I believe it is haram (unlawful)to have sex before marriage. Just as of today and way our people think, AND SAVE THIS PERSON LIFE, some times we need bend the rules. Kind a lessor of two evils.

  45. Devil's Mind
    on January 5th, 2007
    45

    I guess you have misjudged what I write in several occasions.

    First, for the rape thing.. I don’t see why you got all defensive… It is a question that should supposedly help you better understand what you are saying, just an idea to tease your head with in order to help understand the issue from all its angles.

    Sure I would advocate sexual tolerance. In fact it is stupid to think that interpersonal relationships start and end with sex. Only shallow people allow sexual relationships to dramatically change their life and influence their acceptance of others.

    We cannot ban a medical surgical operation because some of us feel threatened by its effect. What about cosmetic surgery, that also manipulates facts… shall we ban it as well?! What about make-up? Putting make-up is also dishonesty, shall we ban it too?

    The mere fact that people wear clothes is dishonesty. Isn’t wearing clothes hiding our body from others?! So thats a kind of dishonesty as well…. Should we ban clothes too?! [PS: I am pro-nudism if you are wondering]

    Do you see my point, we can’t ban something because it involves dishonesty… As i mentioned above: “Honesty is given, not taken.”

  46. kerr
    on January 5th, 2007
    46

    Devil’s Mind

    Ban the hair Dye, too, the Hair removal profucts? etc.

  47. hatem abunimeh
    on January 5th, 2007
    47

    I’m not sure why is every body is so obssessed with what is right and what is wrong.When are you guys going to get it, there is no such a thing as this is right and that is wrong. It is all up to the individual to decide what is right and what is good or no good.Why are we being appointed as self judges? If she feels like doing it and she feels that it is good for her so be it.Virgin versus nonvirgin is a none issue, unless the husband or boy friend is a trained gynocolgist there is no way to tell if the girl was a virgin or not, there is no standard with which you can bench mark on it.I think that we should leave the people alone and let them do whatever the hell they want to do with themselves. They have the money, somebody else have the know how, it is a match, end of the story. Values and morals mean different things to different and shouldn’t be very hastily judged.

  48. Qwaider قويدر
    on January 5th, 2007
    48

    No right and no wrong!?? Hatem, looks like someone didn’t get his morning coffee :)

  49. Devil's Mind
    on January 5th, 2007
    49

    Yeah, Kerr, maybe we should so that everybody would HAVE TO be honest!!! :sarcasm:

  50. Devil's Mind
    on January 5th, 2007
    50

    Sorry for the double post… Yeah, Hatem is right. Right and Wrong are in the eyes of the beholder. Nothing is intrinsically Right or Wrong!

  51. Rihab
    on January 5th, 2007
    51

    LOL! Devil’s mind are you seriously comparing virginity to wearing clothes and cosmetics??

  52. Rihab
    on January 5th, 2007
    52

    You know the more I read the more convinced I am that I reeeaaaally won’t go for an Arab man.

    Seriously, what are we discussing here?? You would prefer a woman lie to you about her history so that you have this illusion that she’s this innocent little angel, while chances are you are nowhere near innocent??? Then oh well, society won’t understand, ok fine… I get that, then why not try to break the trend and try to be the ones who will understand, or is that too difficult to do because you won’t feel like a real man without your virgin bride?? Are you worried she’s had better???

    If you’re a virgin and you demand a virgin fine, but if you’re not a virgin and you’re sitting there demanding virgins, as well as suggesting that a woman should restore her virginity and shut up about her past while you brag about yours, then you’re just a sad, pathetic hypocrite and I pray to God that your wife will end up as one of those sewn up, lying, hypocritical women.

  53. kerr
    on January 5th, 2007
    53

    I see many are missing the point. Virginity is not the concern. Do you ALL know that the Prophet Mohammed SAW wives were ALL not virgins except 3Aesha RAA?
    No Rihab, not worried they had better, because if it is so, she would not leave him. WE are talking about saving her life. This is not by no mean advocating the surgery or covering for her mistakes. No one is PERFECT, that is why Allah gave us the chance to repent. Let us hypothetically are faced with a situation that a woman if she found not virgin(because this is how our society view non married girls) would be killed. Or may be she’ll never get marries and she repented and the only solution was the surgery, what would you say to her?
    I have seen many posters dream of Utopia? No, this is real life where we find people do different things. THAT IS WHY WE HAVE LAWS.

    I agree with your last paragraph.

  54. Rihab
    on January 5th, 2007
    54

    LOL Kerr come on!

    No Rihab, not worried they had better, because if it is so, she would not leave him.

    That really wouldn’t be a women’s main reason for leaving a man, let’s be a little realistic here.

    I know no one is PERFECT so why would a woman be expected to portray herself as PERFECT through such a surgery?

    And again let’s be realistic, yes there are a lot of wackos in society willing to kill a woman for such a thing but there are still some guys that actually don’t mind, to say they do not exist is living in your own utopia.

    And what do you mean by THAT IS WHY WE HAVE LAWS, I don’t get what it has to do with anything you said.

  55. kerr
    on January 5th, 2007
    55

    You have brough up the subject of leaving, not me. No, I was not talking about portraying herself as perfect, because this a fake facade, cheating, or be something that you are not. NO ONE CAN ANSWER ME IF WE ARE FACED WITH THIS SITUATION, what is the proper thing to DO?

    We have Laws to prevent the wackos and or would be offender from breaking what is normal.

  56. Nimer
    on January 5th, 2007
    56

    For some odd reason, the discussion of a girls’ virginity, Hymenoplasty, and all such flavours, - always remind me of this film,
    Chasing Amy
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118842/

    My 2 cents on this heavyhearted topic,
    1) The surgery is valid for it to exist, and should only be pursued by those that could have life-threatening repercussions.

    2) Honesty should be between two people on their road to marriage, - and both should lay the past on the table not for discussion but FYI, and then lay it to rest where it was. What matters, is the present and future, and not the past. If need be, both to take an oath that what is shared between them will be with them to their grave alone. Being an adult doesn’t guarantee a person having a responsible brain respecting other’s privacy and history.

    3) A relationship having a cornerstone as a lie, very much has the potential of a collapse. Sexual history is a very important aspect to be known, though, it’s also a very stupid aspect to collapse relationship.

    Marriage, relationship, partnership, - seriously people should wise up a bit, and learn a bit more, - you can pick up the virgin and she could be useless in your life, and you can pick up that girl in the nady layly & find her to be there for you.

    Moral of the above, - surgery is a necessary lie that for the present to be undertaken, but should gradually diminish with lack of demand. Couples to wed, should be wiser to understand that two together need each other, and their honesty, and acceptance is imperative for their survival. With the cliche of You can’t handle the truth, heh, grow up, you have too.

  57. laila
    on January 5th, 2007
    57

    “Laila, 1)It is my right to ask my future partner about his sexual past (I’m not interested in details, and in fact I wouldn’t want to know details…but I’m sure you’ve heard of STDs)and at the same time, it is his right to opt for not answering!”

    of course STDs are an issue, which is why people are tested for such illnesses before getting married. If there is any chance that your past has left such consequences as to seriously hurt someone, yes you have to sort it out, and either tell the other person or get yourself tested.

    I can ask, and as you rightly said he has the right not to answer.

    ” 2)I can’t quite understand why you would judge someone so harshly for being honest with you about his past and especially if it was not so promiscuous! ”

    well, I was implicitly assuming promiscuity of his behalf. Have you ever met these people who used to be ‘bad’, and then they supposedly changed, and instead of starting a new book they bang on about their past, and use it as a status symbol that somehow gives them more leverage when they lecture you? That is why, if a man told me bluntly he did this that or the other, not only would the actions cause me to refuse, but what i just mentioned. Such liberality in discussing a shady past would cast serious doubt on his sincerity in changing.

    “3)you might have misunderstood…the hymen is NOT a yardstick for measuring virginity, it neither is one for measuring morality nor righteousness…the problem is not with the procedure itself as much as it is with the objective behind it.”

    check my first comment, that is exactly what I said. the hymen is as useless as things can get, and did cite other non-naughty ways of loosing it. i did digress though into other topics :)

  58. Qwaider قويدر
    on January 5th, 2007
    58

    Interesting stuff, I think I have to agree with Nimer on all he summarized there
    I for one will demand to know, just so I can lay all of this to sleep. And I will reciprocate as much as I can. It will be the lady’s choice to decide to put it behind her and invest in the future
    Once all has been cleared out, it would be a chance for an amazing, fresh start with absolutely no worries bleeding from the past

    But that’s only me, everyone else is free of course to pick their own way

  59. Devil's Mind
    on January 5th, 2007
    59

    LOL! Devil’s mind are you seriously comparing virginity to wearing clothes and cosmetics??

    NO: I am comparing Hymenoplasty to wearing clothes and cosmetics.

  60. Rana
    on January 5th, 2007
    60

    Wow is this going to be the 60th comment on this topic!

    I just want to say that I agree with Nas’s comment, also for everyone who’s talking about honesty in relationship, Give me a break:) Is there such thing as a couple that has been completely honest to one other throughout their entire relationship? I highly doubt it. We are people not saints.

  61. Mazz
    on January 6th, 2007
    61

    oh God! that’s alot of comments!
    I reserve my right to comment until my bodyguard gets here.

  62. Rihab
    on January 6th, 2007
    62

    You have brough up the subject of leaving, not me.

    huh?? please quote where?

    No, I was not talking about portraying herself as perfect, because this a fake facade, cheating, or be something that you are not. NO ONE CAN ANSWER ME IF WE ARE FACED WITH THIS SITUATION, what is the proper thing to DO?

    ummm… already did, you go for someone who will accept you the way you are and such people are not impossible to find.

    We have Laws to prevent the wackos and or would be offender from breaking what is normal.

    ok… and… do you mean honour killings or do you think that pre-marital sex is illegal or what?? i honestly don’t get what you’re talking about here.

  63. Hamzeh N.
    on January 6th, 2007
    63

    Devil’s Mind, Kerry, Hamezh… since you guys are advocating hymenoplasties, how would your reaction be if you happened to find out later in your marriage that your wife, for fear of being a victim of society’s cruelty and intolerance, had one to cover up her promiscuous sexual past, but more importantly failed to share that detail with you when you asked before marriage?

    First, you are assuming that I would ask this question.

    Second, at an advanced stage in a relationship such as the case is in the scenario you described, people should not give much weight to what happened before, but to how the actual relationship has progressed so far up to that stage.

    May I suggest something? How about changing your mind set first before adovcating such procedure and perhaps women wont need to resort to it because you - who are a part of that society and possible potentials - would be tolerant, accepting and forgiving!

    Please explain to me which mindset [of mine] you’re talking about.

    But, based on your reactions above, I’m inclined to say (and I may be wrong) that you’re for such procedure because you personally will not accept a non-virgin and would rather have a ‘virgin’ wife regardless of how of a true ‘virgin’ she really is!

    Unlike you, I don’t take this subject personally. I can simply imagine cases where this operation makes sense. That to me excuses the operation from any kind of condemnation. As I said before, what remains is judging the people who do it on a case by case basis. I am not interested in that, and the fact that you assumed that I would ask the person before marriage tells me you still didn’t get it after my first comment. Lets hope you get it now. Capisce?

  64. Rihab
    on January 6th, 2007
    64

    NO: I am comparing Hymenoplasty to wearing clothes and cosmetics

    ummm… ok… right, that makes so much more sense now.

  65. kerr
    on January 6th, 2007
    65

    Rihab,
    This is your quote about finding better
    [quote]Then oh well, society won’t understand, ok fine… I get that, then why not try to break the trend and try to be the ones who will understand, or is that too difficult to do because you won’t feel like a real man without your virgin bride?? Are you worried she’s had better???[/quote]

    I do not know if you remember what you write or just want to argue for the sake of argumnet???

    Laws as I said is to prevent people from doing bad things. As a Muslim, any non married person(males and Females) who commit adultry(zina) should be lashed 100 times. Honor killing is wrong and I TOTALLY OPPOSE it. I am against pre marital sex. As it is un-lawful and haram. Do not know what you have against Arab men or what kind of a bad experience you had with one of them? I just see that your unger towards them is clouding your way of judging thinks. I am looking at the bigger picture while you are looking at it from an eye of a needle.
    I said many times and say again honesty, faithfulness and fidelity is important after marriage. If I want my wife a vergin, then I MUST BE virgin. I have no right to ask her about her past and sure she has no right to ask me about my past. As a matter of fact, IMHO, is better not to talk about it.

  66. Rihab
    on January 7th, 2007
    66

    Kerr,

    Do you actually understand what you write??

    You said:

    You have brough up the subject of leaving, not me.

    Now please explain how on earth is asking, “Are you worried she’s had better?” bringing up the subject of leaving someone?? Do you actually understand why I laughed and said:

    LOL Kerr come on!
    …
    That really wouldn’t be a women’s main reason for leaving a man, let’s be a little realistic here.

    You really have an issue of comprehension don’t you? In case you haven’t realised, whenever I say that I would rather not consider an Arab man it usually comes up when we deal with the issue of hypocrisy and I do sincerely believe that Arab men suffer from a lot of hypocrisy and double standards when it comes to women - and I know I’m not alone in this view. For example, in your answer you clearly state that honesty, fidelity and faithfulness is important in marriage and yet you go on to state that you should not share your past with your partner… isn’t that a form of dishonesty?? How on earth do you build a life-long relationship with a person when you’re unable to and unwilling to share certain aspects of your life with them?? Furthermore, if you have done nothing wrong in your past what are you afraid of sharing?? And if you have done something wrong, why would you be with someone who will not accept with your good and bad?? Aren’t you disrespecting yourself by being with them??

    And on a final note, perhaps you need to develop a bit of self-decency and self-respect by not resorting to such low tactics as attempting to smear a person’s character for the mere fact that you have an inability to develop a strong argument. This is a discussion, if you’re incapable of remaining civil with those who disagree with you it’s generally wise not to participate.

  67. kerr
    on January 7th, 2007
    67

    Rihab,
    Oh Grow up. You are playing with words, not me. And still you presist in arguing and your diatribe is clearly show that you lack any civility in conversation or debates. You want to shove your opinion only and LOL @ You Rihab, you are the one who are smearing and attacking. Any how, I do not care what you think nor who you are going to marry. This is your business. ALhamdulliah, I am married and content with my marriage.

  68. Rihab
    on January 8th, 2007
    68

    LOL! I admit, you have a phenomenal ability to twist things. Try to remember that my comments weren’t even directed at you and yet you felt the need to get defensive.

    Shove an opinion? It’s called expressing an opinion. I’m getting a little bored of this, so I won’t re-embarass you by asking you to quote and show who started with the personal attacks.

    Oh and ummmm.. thanks for sharing your personal info… clearly, this subject hasn’t touched a nerve.

  69. Iman
    on January 8th, 2007
    69

    Why did this turn personal!

  70. kerr
    on February 14th, 2007
    70

    مشترطا أن يكون اجراء العملية بهدف ستر الفتاة
    مفتي مصر يجيز عمليات ترقيع غشاء البكارة للنساء “لأي سبب كان”

    أجاز الدكتور علي جمعة، مفتي مصر، إجراء عملية ترقيع غشاء البكارة للنساء اللاتي فقدن عذريتهن “لأي سبب كان”، قبل الإقدام على الزواج، مؤكدا أنه “أمر مباح”، بحسب تقرير لوكالة قدس برس الاربعاء 14-2-2007.

    وأكد جمعة، لبرنامج “البيت بيتك” على القناة الثانية/ للتلفزيون المصري، مساء أمس الثلاثاء ، في تفصيله لهذه الفتوى، إن “الدين الإسلامي يدعو إلى الستر، وإذا كان إجراء الفتاة، التي فقدت عذريتها لأي سبب كان، لعملية ترقيع غشاء البكارة سيؤدي إلى سترها، فإن الإسلام يبيح ذلك”.

    وأضاف مفتي مصر: “على تلك الفتاة ألا تخبر خطيبها بأنها فقدت عذريتها، كما أن الأمر ينطبق كذلك على المرأة الزانية، حيث لا يجوز لها أن تخبر زوجها بأنها ارتكب جريمة الزنا”.وأكد الدكتور جمعة “أن ذلك الأمر يأتي في إطار السعي للحفاظ على وحدة الأسرة، وبهدف مساعدة الفتيات المخطئات على التوبة والزواج، ولا يعد من قبيل الغش والخداع”.

    وحول قيام بعض السيدات المتزوجات، بإجراء عملية ترقيع غشاء البكارة، “لإعادة عذريتهن ومفاجأة أزواجهن بهدف استعادة ذكريات ليلة الزفاف”، قال مفتي مصر “إنه لا يوجد نص يحرم ذلك على الرغم من غرابة الأمر، إلا أنه مباح ما دام لا يؤثر صحيا على المرأة”.

    يذكر أن هذه الفتوى للدكتور علي جمعة، بشأن ترقيع غشاء البكارة، سبق أن أيدتها داعيات إسلاميات، كما أن فتوى المفتي بشأن ترقيع البكارة أثارت جدلا، مثلما أدت تصريحات سابقة له بشأن أمور أخرى لإثارة جدل مماثل في الشهور الأخيرة، ومن ذلك وصفه في تشرين أول (أكتوبر) الماضي، أصحاب فتوى

  71. Nouf's
    on March 24th, 2007
    71

    “We have Laws to prevent the wackos and or would be offender from breaking what is normal.”

    Yet in spite of theses laws, women STILL go to extreme measures to have a hymenoplasty. Doesn’t that say something about their confidence in these Laws?

    Speaking as a man, it is disappointing that so many here choose to ignore the woman’s fear & instead focus on whether or not she is being dishonest. The implication being that if she is lying, she deserves any & all punishments she might receive.

    Sick.

  72. Coco
    on June 2nd, 2009
    72

    I think men and old mentality should take a good look at who is responsible for this lie. If men and families did not put such a stigma to not being a virgin at the time of marriage these women would not have to resort to mutilating their bodies and not admitting to certain facts. It is the hypocrite culture behind this subject that is sickening.

    Why do we women do not stand in solidarity and tell men to get their head out of their ass or better we should demand that men prove that they are virgin as well.

    Woman and man come in all size and shapes. Hymen comes in many size and shape. some women do not bleed the first time they have intercourse, others have the hymen covering the entire opening of the vagina opening, making penetration unlikely or worst very painful is the man force his penis in the vagina and tear off the hymen. Girls involved in sport like horseback-riding can tear their hymen without ever noticing. So how can you really prove that you are a virgin? It is the same for a man, he can’t really prove that he is a virgin by the look of his penis.

    This has gone beyond that one should wait until they are married to have sex.
    50% of the time theses are arrange or forced marriage. Is it fair to the woman to give her virginity to a man that she may not love or worse who bought her.

    They are many families marrying their daughter for financial gain. (I call it white slavery) and if the women is aware of the situation and chose to marry for status, financial stability or a better economical situation (I call it prostitution).

    Point being the hymen reconstruction is only the symptom of a deceased and evil mentality created by some men and some very stupid women.

    The men know about this procedures and goes on with this farce anyway. OK, for certain women that asshole they are marrying have absolutely no respect for the woman and view her as an object or property. Do you really want to marry such idiots?

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