mo

01.29.07 @ 9:00 am

i don’t have a problem with palestinians killing israelis .. it’s palestinians killing palestinians i have a problem with.

Iman

01.29.07 @ 9:02 am

Actually, I have a problem with Palestinians killing innocent israelis. It’s irresponsible, it’s stupid and it’s just as bad as when israelis kill innocent Palestinians.

mo

01.29.07 @ 11:13 am

innocent israelis? .. mm no such thing in my opinion

Kerr

01.29.07 @ 2:48 pm

Any israeli who serves in the army is not innocent. Any person who supports the killings of Palestinians is not innocent. Anyone who opposes the occupation and condemns the killing of Palestinians is innocent.

Rihab

01.29.07 @ 2:57 pm

You can’t determine the views of people sitting in a bakery, which is why killing them is wrong… actually, killing people for their views is wrong in principle anyway.

mo

01.29.07 @ 4:09 pm

well when we get the tanks and the f-16’s then we can talk about targeting civilian vs military .. until then the fact remains that we are at war with the israelis and that justifies these bombings in my view .. these attacks create a balance .. they send a message .. that if you kill us we’ll kill you .. but that’s just my opinion .. maybe i’m wrong.

and i could also argue that they are not innocent .. that their crime is living on land that they know does not belong to them.

tommy

01.29.07 @ 7:04 pm

innocent israelis? .. mm no such thing in my opinion

How about this:

I’m an American. Muslims attacked us on 9/11. Innocent Muslims?

….mmmm…. no such thing in my opinion. I guess we should kill all Muslims and nuke Mecca and Medina.

Do you really approve of that sort of logic?

queenie

01.29.07 @ 10:20 pm

Tommy, you can’t draw parallels between 9/11 and the Israeli occupation that has been going in for 58 years. The logic doesn’t apply to everything, one must consider the historical context and the current situation on the ground.

I don’t think there is such a thing as “innocent Israelis”. Israelis live in “Israel” fully knowing that the life they have is at the expense of the indigenous population, and that they get to life their prosperous lives and reap the benefits of the land because Palestinian refugees and those living in the West Bank and Gaza are bearing the costs. They are intentionally displacing Palestinians and forcing them to live as second class citizens and as refugees. The Israelis in the bakery are not innocent, their presence there was brought about by the establishment of the occupation and the constant oppression of Palestinians. Until Palestinian refugees are allowed their rights to return to their land and the occupation ends, Israelis are guilty perpetrators of injustice.

mo

01.29.07 @ 10:48 pm

hey tommy .. when muslims come occupy the US and throw the americans out so they can establish a nation there .. then we can talk

9/11 .. boo frickin hoo!

tommy

01.30.07 @ 3:01 am

Crazy Islamic Logic in Reverse - Round 2

when muslims come occupy the US and throw the americans out so they can establish a nation there

Why wait until that point? If the Palestinians were given all the land that is now Israel and Jews started moving in to take it again, wouldn’t you defend their right to resist at that point? To wait until the Jews have reconquered the entire territory would be foolish, wouldn’t it? Similarly, not resisting the Muslims would be strategically stupid for westerners. The Muslims have already made their intentions clear: they want to establish a global Caliphate and reduce all non-Muslims to dhimmis or exterminate them outright. This has been made evident, again and again. Therefore, all actions by Muslims are inherently imperialistic and no Muslim is innocent. Besides, Muslims are still occupying former Christian lands in Egypt, North Africa, Turkey and the Near East. Since you believe that no amount of time can make occupation justifiable, you need to surrender all these lands to Christians. Stop the illegal occupation and go back to Arabia, Arabs! Give Christianity back its stolen lands! Non-Muslims have a right to resist Islam wherever it appears and no Muslim, male or female, young or old, is innocent.

We should nuke Mecca and Medina and if Muslims don’t like it…

…boo frickin’ hoo!

Tommy, you can’t draw parallels between 9/11 and the Israeli occupation that has been going in for 58 years. The logic doesn’t apply to everything, one must consider the historical context and the current situation on the ground.

The historical context is that Muslims have been and currently are at war with non-Muslims everywhere Muslims exist in any number. Look at Thailand, the Philippines, and Indonesia, for example. Or Nigeria or the recent terrorist attempts by Muslims in Canada. You certainly cannot pin the violence in all these societies to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. The only common denominator in all cases is the violent creed of Islam. All Muslims cause problems eventually. They cannot be trusted. They must be resisted everywhere.

tommy

01.30.07 @ 3:38 am

On a more serious note, if you want historical context, here is some for you:

Let us assume that the Palestinians are as innocent in their own plight as they attempt to portray themselves to the rest of the world. As I see it, they clearly are not. But let us, for the sake of argument, assume they are. Advocates for Palestinians refugees routinely assert that no amount of time can make occupation right. The passage of decades or centuries means nothing. The Palestinians still have rightful claim to the land because the passage of time does not make occupation any more justifiable, they argue. What if we were to apply that logic to every group that could lay claim to the area that is now Israel and the territories.

If we did that, then the land belongs to the oldest surviving group that can lay claim to having rightfully occupied the land. The land has passed through many hands over the years: the British, the Arabs, the Turks, etc. However, since the Canaanites are no more, the Jews would be the oldest living group that has a right to the land. Since no amount of occupation by other people can legitimize the theft of Jewish land, the only illegal occupation today is that of the West Bank and Gaza by the Palestinians. By such reasoning, Palestinians would need to end their illegitimate occupation and disappear off into the Levant, Egypt, or maybe head off to Arabia.

Personally, I think it is best that people don’t get mired in history and work out a solution based on current realities rather than past history. I think it is silly for Palestinians to attempt to forcibly take Israel back from the Jews. Similarly, I think it would be silly for the Jews to attempt to drive the Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank. But if the Palestinians want to argue they’ve had their land stolen from them, then they should be mindful of the fact that the land they are claiming as their own was, in fact, stolen from the Jews by somebody else. If no amount of time can legitimize occupation, then it is the Jews rather than the Palestinians who have the strongest claim to the land.

mo

01.30.07 @ 9:41 am

ok i’ll play by your logic .. then that means you need to get out of the US and give it back to the native americans.

kerr

01.30.07 @ 11:56 am

How do you know the ” the Canaanites are no more”????
How do you prove the Jews of Old are the same as of today’s Jews?
As a matter of fact the European Jews are a converts from the nomadic khazar tribe. So those khazar converts has no rights to Palestine. Zionism has hijacked Judaism. Zionism is a racist and colonial movement that is using Judaism to advance its greedy agenda.

kerr

01.30.07 @ 12:04 pm

BTW,
Call me a conspiracy theorist, but there is a HUGE cover up regarding the 911 tragedy. Just like Pear harbor and the Gulf of Tokin. Indeed the Zionists and the Christian Extremist Right groups have ridden this excuse to attack Afghanistan, Iraq and the so called war on terrorism. The racist, bigots, and Islamophobic’s have used it to attack Islam and Arabs under the excuse of fighting the radical elements in Islam.

tommy

01.30.07 @ 1:16 pm

mo,

ok i’ll play by your logic .. then that means you need to get out of the US and give it back to the native americans.

Exactly. But that isn’t going to happen either. My grandfather was a Cherokee Indian from Oklahoma. Most Cherokees were deported there in the 1830s. It was very unfair. But I’ve got news for you: the Cherokees aren’t getting North Carolina and Tennessee back, no matter how much they “resist.” When the Cherokees arrived in Oklahoma, they accepted their fate, unfair as it was, and began building new lives in a new land. It is better to deal with the situation as it exists today and move on from that point rather than getting mired in the past. The Palestinians need to move on just like the Cherokee did. Their children deserve better than this continued madness.

kerr,

How do you know the ” the Canaanites are no more”????

What exactly happened to the Canaanites is debatable. The Bible speaks of them being largely exterminated. Modern archaeology indicates that these stories are likely not factual. There is a good chance that the Canaanites simply became absorbed into the Jewish nation over time or that the Jews were originally a tribe of Canaanites that became predominant. It is difficult to say. The history of the Levant is very complex.

However, we know that the Canaanites eventually disappeared one way or another. How do we know this?

The Roman Empire ruled Judea and surrounding regions in the Mideast. All Roman references to the Canaanites indicate that they were a long gone people by the time the Romans conquered Judea. The Romans were meticulous record-keepers. They had to be, if they expected to collect taxes from subject peoples. They couldn’t have missed the Canaanites.

How do you prove the Jews of Old are the same as of today’s Jews?

As a matter of fact the European Jews are a converts from the nomadic khazar tribe. So those khazar converts has no rights to Palestine.

I read quite a lot about human population genetics. Neither Ashkenazic nor Sephardic Jews are descended from the Khazars. The Khazar theory was popularized in Alfred Koestler’s book “The Thirteenth Tribe.” He proposed that the Ashkenazim were descendants of Khazar Turks who converted to Judaism during the European Dark Ages. Genetic studies show that is not the case. Those studies indicate that Ashkenazic Jews cluster closely with Sephardic Jews and both Jewish populations cluster strongly with other Mideastern populations such as the Palestinians. All genetic evidence to date indicates that the Khazar hypothesis is, for the most part, bogus. While genetic studies don’t prove that there is absolutely no Khazar ancestry in the Ashkenazim, they do prove that the predominant element of Ashkenazic Jews’ ancestry is Mideastern, not Turkish. There may be some Khazar ancestry in modern Ashkenazim, but it is clearly a small inheritance, not a predominant ancestry.

If you are relying on the continued existence of the Canaanites or on a strong identification of Ashkenazic Jews with Khazars as a rebuttal to my temporal argument above, you’ll need to come up with some better arguments.

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but there is a HUGE cover up regarding the 911 tragedy.

OK. I’m calling you a conspiracy theorist. Neither Pearl Harbor, nor the Gulf of Tonkin, were fabricated or covered up incidents, either in spite of popular conspiracy rumors. But I don’t want to get into debunking conspiracy theories. I do recommend reading both sides of an argument and trying to falsify your suspicions, rather than simply seeking out information that seems to confirm them. I’ve noticed that Arabs (and western Palestinian apologists) are very conspiracy-oriented, unfortunately.

kerr

01.30.07 @ 2:01 pm

Funny how you israeli apologists misconstrue facts and falsify the truth. You have mastered the twists and turns that Joseph Goebbels will hang his head in shame. In your history falsification (typical Zionists practice) you just mentioned the Canaanites have converted to Judaism and completely ignored the Christians in Palestine. Why not the Jews have also converted to Christianity, who in turn converted to Islam (both Christians and Jews)?

Majority of European Jews are Khazars as the genetic tests have proved it. Also Turkey is on the Mediterranean and since the Khazars were nomadic they moved eastwards. Many of the AshkeNazi Jews have nothing in common with the Arab Jews or Sephardic Jews. Look at their blue eyes and blond hair? How they are the same? Genetic tests also proved that. Regarding the Pearl Harbor and gulf of Tokin, by you denying it, does not make it the absolute the truth. I see you used the little Green football site for your sources. Hahahahahaha, it is like using the nazi’s site for info on the Jews. You are too funny tommy. ROTFLMAO

tommy

01.30.07 @ 2:26 pm

completely ignored the Christians in Palestine

The Christians were a tiny sect that did not survive among Jews and were not distinguished from other Jewish groups by the Romans in its earliest days. The idea that all the Canaanites became Christians and all the Christians became Palestinians is laughable and without foundation.

Funny how you israeli apologists misconstrue facts and falsify the truth.

Majority of European Jews are Khazars as the genetic tests have proved it.

Nonsense. You are just making stuff up. A site that holds a collection of abstracts of articles on the matter sums it up this way:

At the present time, it is known that Eastern European Jews have a significant Eastern Mediterranean element which manifests itself in a close relationship with Kurdish, Armenian, Palestinian Arab, Lebanese, Syrian, and Anatolian Turkish peoples. This is why the Y-DNA haplogroups J and E, which are typical of the Middle East, are so common among them. At the same time, there are traces of European (including Western Slavic) and Khazar ancestry among European Jews. [I would add the relatively high presence of the Cohenic Y-chromosome is further evidence, as well.]

Also Turkey is on the Mediterranean and since the Khazars were nomadic they moved eastwards.

If you would learn a little bit about population genetics, you would quickly discover that the modern Turks are not very “Turkish” either, I’m afraid. While most of the people inhabiting modern Turkey speak Turkish, they are, racially speaking, not very Turkish at all. The Turkish people originated in central Asia and were Mongoloid in appearance. The Kazakhs and Uzbeks would be examples of people who are far more ethnically Turkish than the Turks. The people we call the Turks imposed their language, but hardly any of their genes, on the inhabitants of modern Turkey.

Look at their blue eyes and blond hair?

I’m not sure if you are aware of it or not, but blue eyes and blond hair are both found in the Middle East periodically. One group, the Samaritans (likely, the closest living relatives of the Jews, incidentally), has a high incidence of light hair and eyes. Certainly, Levantine Arabs have these traits much more frequently than do Arabs from the Arabian peninsula. Besides, no one is denying that there is some European admixture in modern Jews, but European ancestry is not the predominant ancestry of modern Jews either.

Regarding the Pearl Harbor and gulf of Tokin, by you denying it, does not make it the absolute the truth.

My supporting or denying anything does not have an effect on the truth-value of either incident. Truth is something apart from my opinion of it. Nevertheless, Pearl Harbor and the Gulf of Tonkin were not conspiracies.

I see you used the little Green football site for your sources. Hahahahahaha, it is like using the nazi’s site for info on the Jews.

The Little Green Footballs post references an article in Australia’s biggest selling newspaper. A link is provided. I suggest you click on the link if you don’t want to take LGF’s word for it.

mo

01.30.07 @ 2:29 pm

tommy .. you said “The Palestinians need to move on just like the Cherokee did” .. well that’s your opinion .. i for one refuse to move on .. btw i don’t believe for a second that there is any cherokee in your roots .. just thought i’d mention that.

you know .. i’d love to find out where you live so i can come beat you up and throw you out of your home and tell you to move on.

lsn man .. you can justify and make excuses all you want .. you can write me long fancy paragraphs full of zionist propaganda .. but guess what .. i’m not changing my mind .. so don’t waste your time .. or waste it it’s not really my place to tell you what to do .. in any case i know i’m not going to waste anymore of my time replying to you.

it’s simple .. someone stole our land .. we want it back .. how long will that take? .. i don’t know .. will we get it back? .. you bet

tommy

01.30.07 @ 3:01 pm

btw i don’t believe for a second that there is any cherokee in your roots .. just thought i’d mention that.

You can believe whatever you want to believe. My maternal grandfather was a Cherokee man from eastern Oklahoma, nonetheless. Other than that, I’m basically plain old German.

you know .. i’d love to find out where you live so i can come beat you up and throw you out of your home and tell you to move on.

If you’re as skinny, non-muscular, and short as the average Arab I see on my university, then I’m not too worried.

in any case i know i’m not going to waste anymore of my time replying to you.

Do as you will.

it’s simple .. someone stole our land .. we want it back .. how long will that take?

It is real simple: if no amount of time can justify occupation, the land you claim was stolen and are rightfully entitled to was stolen from somebody else who owned it previously. In short, the Palestinians are demanding their right to stolen goods.

.. i don’t know .. will we get it back? .. you bet

Not a chance and, if you people were logical, you wouldn’t waste your time trying. Live in the present, not in the past.

kerr

01.30.07 @ 3:07 pm

[i]One group, the Samaritans [/i]
I know how the Samaritans look like. Not what you described. Yes the Palestinians do have blue eyes, green eyes, blond hair, red hair, etc, but those are rare cases. They are not as the AshkeNazi Jews who are really are Europeans. They are Europeans in their looks, traditions, way of worshipping (prayers), way of life, etc. They are foreign to the land and its socio-culture. It makes most of the Jews as colonials and occupiers. By the way, Samaritans Jews still refuse to be part of Israel and they refuse to have the Israeli citizenship. They call themselves Palestinian Jews and, Yasser Arafat has one of the Samaritan Jews in his cabinet beside another Jew who was his advisor.
The rest of your rhetoric, well it is a boring rhetoric. Typical of the, yawning Zionists propaganda, which I am all familiar with. Things that you can not answer, just say it is true and we should bow and take your word for it. Wink, wink.

Mo, Zionist Jews always try to be someone else so they have credibility. I do not think that he has a drop of Cherokee blood, either.

mo

01.30.07 @ 3:36 pm

If you’re as skinny, non-muscular, and short as the average Arab I see on my university, then I’m not too worried.

lol even if i was everything u described i could still take u .. anyway no worries .. i can just get britain to do the dirty work for me in the beginning .. and then if i should require any further assistance i can just run to mommy USA so she can provide me with weapons and vetoes :p

Maha

01.30.07 @ 4:13 pm

Are you guys seriously discussing ethnic purity ? and how middle-eastern are the Jews and any ethnic minorities ?

The Palestinian Israeli issue is not about origins at all, there are Palestinian Jews and Christians and Muslims who continuously lived in Palestine. The problem with Israel’s existence is …who the hell gives them the right to ship Europeans in airplanes and establish a country with borders and an army on a land that doesn’t belong to them??? Jews in the middle east who are middle eastern never were a problem until the establishment of a zionist country inside a country !!

Do the non-european muslims in Europe have the right to establish a country there ?

Can the Jewish Lobby buy half of Wisconsin and establish a western Israel there, with borders, an army, kosher cheese and total sovereignty ??

please don’t come and tell me there were no countries and no borders until after WWI, the middle east always had geographical borders, even in biblical times there was iraq, syria, lebanon, jordan, egypt and PALESTINE. Check the Turah or the old testement!!!

tommy

01.30.07 @ 7:48 pm

They are not as the AshkeNazi Jews who are really are Europeans.

I thought they were Genghis-Khan-style Central Asian Turks? Now they are Europeans, huh? The genetic say they are predominantly Mideastern whether you like it or not. In any event, you still have to contend with the 50% of the Jewish population in Israel that is composed of Sephardim. Ask the Sephardim who they would rather live with, the Palis or the Ashkenazim. But next, I suppose, you’ll be claiming the Sephardim are all Greeks or Spaniards or something. Unlike those Canaanite-Palestinians. Lol.

Mo, Zionist Jews always try to be someone else so they have credibility. I do not think that he has a drop of Cherokee blood, either.

Lol. I’m Jewish now, huh? Oi vey! Lol. Wow. I thought I was an agnostic who was raised nominally Catholic. You learn something new every day.

even if i was everything u described i could still take u .. anyway no worries ..

Lol. I’m sure you’re a real tiger, lil’ hajji.

Shaloom Elfalastini, USA

01.31.07 @ 10:33 am

Hey tommy fella,
you sound so familiar.?? Your hate and racism and derogatory remarks are all so familiar.

Rihab

01.31.07 @ 11:49 am

tommy,

Aren’t you slightly contradicting yourself? I mean, you rightly say that it wouldn’t be realistic if the native Americans were to try to throw out the present-day Americans off their land and yet you seem to agree with the Israelis applying it to the Palestinians. The Palestinians who have been made refugees had to leave their homes because the Israelis wanted to reclaim land that their ancestors lived on 5000yrs ago. Those Palestinians knew no other homes than the ones they were forced to leave and now their right to return to those homes is being denied by the Israelis. The Israelis on the other hand, for the most part, willingly left homes and lives they had in other countries to start a new life in Israel. How is it just or fair that people who have no other place to go be forced to leave their homes for people who willingly left their own homes to reclaim land their ancestors left thousands of years ago?? If every race and ethnicity (assuming all Jews are of the same ethnicity and not simply the followers of Judaism) were to do that today the world would be in a complete state of chaos.

Marwan

02.2.07 @ 7:24 am

hey,
well i have the same idea, Palestinians are killing them selves everyday and a very few Israelis are being killed and that won’t get any benefits ,, it is just getting worse