Shaden

04.6.08 @ 10:53 am

I agree with what you said, I’m still thinking about the first one though

Jasim

04.6.08 @ 11:07 am

The second one, is simply great.

l3.K.

04.6.08 @ 11:51 am

dignity ? did u ask yourself the good question?
what s dignity by the way ?
the job would give u dignity or not ?
are u judging human beings ?
i met more strippers with much more dignity than politicians , or religious people , or whatever.

with respect,

l3.

Iman

04.7.08 @ 1:07 am

Shaden and Jasim, it’ll be actually more interesting if you elaborate!

Hi |3.K.:

dignity ? did u ask yourself the good question?

Yes. Of course.

what s dignity by the way ?

My dignity is my sense of self-worth and self-respect…and each person has different measures of defining how much self-worth they have and how much respect they hold for themselves…they may even have a different meaning of respect all together..

are u judging human beings ?

I am not judging, but I believe as people we do have minds and have lived through so many experiences that give us the ability and allow us to evaluate and formulate opinions.

And keep in mind that I am not suggesting casting strippers aside and isolating them from society (and nor am I comparing them to politicians or religious leaders … so while it may be true, I find its mention here relatively irrelevant)

While some of these men and women are happy with and find nothing wrong in what they’re doing, I nonetheless find such ‘profession’ - from my point of view - very degrading…

So yes, again… I strongly believe that scrubbing and wiping down toilets is more dignified and noble than putting a price on your body for a bunch of random men and women to drool and gawk at the sight of.

l3.

04.7.08 @ 4:51 am

did i seem agressive ?
or passionate ?
nevermind .
i still think that there is something wrong .
i think u can’t “help” anybody . and that if u can , it is certainly not in trying to tell somebody to do something else than what he does. it would be just a personnal fantasy ” i helped him , he changed his job because of me . i m so proud of me/him. now he s wipping toilets.”
if u wanna show respect to someone , u just accept his life , as it is . especially for the people who are marginalized by society. because in saying that wipping toilets is a more dignified job , u just erase a whole categorie of jobs , and people that are here , because human being exists , and has always been existing the same way. maybe u don’t call to” cast strippers aside and isolating them from society” but in writing such a jugment/sentence, u help to marginalize them.
showing respect is recognizing a stripper , prostitute , junkie, as a friend . they don’t need u , they don’t need anybody more than u need somebody.
they’r as strong as u could be.
some of them has this energy which comes from rage , that could give a great lesson to many good or brave (Brassens) citizens.

about the body .

“we” , in the white and civilized and extra intelligent and wonderful society , erased the body from our living, from our house , even from love. from religion. from everything . from arts. from nature.
i m not writing a manifesto pro nudity. but i admire people , in that society , that break some predefined morals . in that case , they talk with their body . they respect their body , because they know it . they accept it. they are aware of it . it s admirable .

but money is everywhere . unfortunately .

some sell their body

and

some sell their soul
some sell their music (prostitution)
some sell their countries
some sell dreams (!)
some sell thoughts
some sell their time
some sell religions ,
with stupid books.

where is dignity now ?

from l3. with love.

Shaden

04.7.08 @ 7:19 am

I don’t want to sound rude or anything, but what “13″ said is absurd. I think that you’re the one living in fantasy! since when is prostitution a real job? they do it because they either have to, as in forced by someone and are generally afraid, or because they think they’re not good enough to do something else.

As for those who do it because they want to, in my opinion, they have no respect for themselves nor for their bodies. They’re basically selling themselves. how do you feel about selling your smile or feelings? is that ok? I’m sure some people would do that if they have to, but the idea of getting paid for offering yourself to others in anyway is very dishonest and dishonorable at least in my book.

Ola

04.7.08 @ 2:49 pm

With all due respect to strippers I agree with the second quote, it sounds like a line from a movie or something. Anyway, I’m not judgmental myself and I agree that some strippers might have more dignity than some poiliticians, but we’re really talking about the JOB here not about the people themselves.

If you or a girl you know where offered a job in politics and a job in a strip club, which one will you recommend? Of course this doesn’t include politicians who do go to strip clubs…

Ola

04.7.08 @ 2:52 pm

I’m really dizzy… obvious from the “if you WHERE”!!

Iman

04.7.08 @ 3:09 pm

|3,

It is worth re-iterating that each individual’s measure of self-worth and self-respect is different… and I’m speaking here from my own perspective of how I define self-worth and self-respect. so keep that in mind as you read further … and try to read with an open-mind…and help me understand your point of view without turning on the defensive side…

i think u can’t “help” anybody . and that if u can , it is certainly not in trying to tell somebody to do something else than what he does. it would be just a personnal fantasy ” i helped him , he changed his job because of me . i m so proud of me/him. now he s wipping toilets.”

You’re missing the point …wiping toilets was just one example of the many other jobs a person can choose over stripping … AND If someone’s circumstances forced, and I repeat, FORCED, them into such profession… something that they did not choose willingly, but it was life’s harshness that drove it onto them then yes… I, as a person who values others, would gladly love to volunteer my help … that’s one reason why we should have more community centers and social services centers … While it may have something to do with it, it is not entirely all about the internal satisfaction one derives from helping others (and that’s a separately entire topic all together).

especially for the people who are marginalized by society. because in saying that wipping toilets is a more dignified job , u just erase a whole categorie of jobs

Not necessarily … it’s endless what some people will do for money and how much others will pay for pleasure!

showing respect is recognizing a stripper , prostitute , junkie, as a friend . they don’t need u , they don’t need anybody more than u need somebody

You seem to be missing the point, again. I’m not talking about the person/individual…I’m talking about the job. You can still view someone’s job as degrading while respecting or holding a neutral perspective on their overall character and person.
and just so that we’re a bit more realistic … a friend or not, we don’t live in this world alone … we all need someone one way or another!

some of them has this energy which comes from rage , that could give a great lesson to many good or brave (Brassens) citizens

Help me understand this a bit more…

but i admire people , in that society , that break some predefined morals . in that case , they talk with their body .

Could it be because it’s the only thing they have?

they respect their body , because they know it .

define respect in this context? Respect their body by putting it on display to the highest bidder?! (no pun intended)

they accept it. they are aware of it .

Is it precious to them, too?

where is dignity now ?

Some choose to die than give up their dignity
And some die for their country
Some give up their souls for a dunum of their land
Some have only their dreams to live off of
And some give up their time
Some share their thoughts
And some die defending the liberty, freedom, rights and dignity of other humans

and that is noble.

mo

04.7.08 @ 5:50 pm

can we at least agree that there is nothing dignified about stripping as a profession .. without discussing the “moral fiber” of who is actually doing it ..

look at it this way .. let’s assume that “Wiping toilets is a more dignified job than stripping” is an undisputable fact .. but does that mean that everyone who wipes toilets for a living is more dignified than someone who strips for a living .. not necessarily.

for example i could say being a doctor is a more dignified job than being a lawyer .. but does that mean that the doctor is always more dignified than the lawyer .. no.

l3.K.

04.8.08 @ 7:05 am

Amis du soir , bonsoir ,

I assume that my english is bad , and that there is some points that could be written better than what i wrote.
We could talk endlessly on any subject, but the point is that it s useless.
From the beginning , I was not trying to make u change any idea of your ideas , and i respect, accept, understand each word from each of you.
And what i wrote is nothing , and is already unexistant.

yours,

l3.

ps : “Don’t worry too much” C.Bukowski

Iman

04.8.08 @ 7:42 am

Ola & mo, yes…it’s the job, not the individual…

|3, the problem is not with your English…your English is just perfect… and your conversations are always intriguing…it’s just that I don’t understand a few of your points and was hoping you’d clarify a bit more. Discussion with a purpose to enlighten or humor (to name a few) is never useless.

side note: even though some individuals who choose to strip choose to do so in order to defy or deviate from pre-defined societal norms, they still have to maintain a certain body image that society and man himself have defined and passed as the standard…and by doing so, they’re conforming nonetheless…and degradingly so.

P.S. keep coming back.

Iman

04.8.08 @ 10:18 am

i could say being a doctor is a more dignified job than being a lawyer

Heyy!MO… it depends on what kind of law/yer ;P

Safeena

04.9.08 @ 9:58 am

Thought provoking comment, Iman. I don’t mean to be rude, just wondering…rather than writing lines and paras (and have others read it as well) why didn’t you guys just pick up the phone and go on and on and on…

Iman

04.9.08 @ 10:35 am

Hi Safeena,
What brings you here? Glad you’re here nonetheless.

I don’t mean to be rude

You’re not!

…rather than writing lines and paras (and have others read it as well) why didn’t you guys just pick up the phone and go on and on and on…

Well.
That was MY ‘Thought of the Day.’ Inspired by a conversation. Recorded in text.

And.

I wanted to give passers-by that I don’t know (like some of the commentators above and like yourself) the chance to experience what may be a ‘thought provoking’ moment … and offer some insight as well;)!

Come back soon with your thoughts, yeah?:)

P.S. Your (nick?)name means ’ship’ in Arabic. I think.

safeena

04.15.08 @ 12:55 pm

Hi Iman, I like your site…it has a different look. I am here per word of mouth…heard (of course, good!) from someone about your site so thought of checking it out.

Yeah, I know safeena means ‘a ship’ in arabic…I simply loved this name ever since I first heard it.

In my previous comment, all I wanted to say was, on a particular subject/thought/topic, a few thoughts seems okay but when there is too much going back and forth…the readers attention starts to fade out. That’s all I wanted to convey!

Keep the good thoughts coming!

Pingback Iman’s » Reading, very soon.

05.5.08 @ 11:17 am

[…] Sounds very interesting. Though this isn’t/wasn’t about prostitution, I still believe this (and similar) type of job could* be degrading to one’s dignity. But I will reserve my in-depth opinion of this book till after I read it. […]